November 2024
(00:01 – 2:45)
Am I okay to record? She said I've got to record. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
Right, how fast was that? I mean, you're a pro.
You're the pro. Well, you know what I mean. Good team.
I love the fact that nobody hangs around out here. I mean, you must have been on there as well. I was in New York for ten years.
I did so many shoots. It took nine hours. And I was like, what the fuck? Lunch break.
Is everyone exhausted? Do you want to go home and get a bath? And it's just been a good reason. It's so good. And we did three outfits.
It's great. Done. It's brilliant.
That's amazing. Thank you so much for doing this today. No, thank you.
How did this all triangulate? So, yeah. Well, first of all. Do I have brain powder? Let's do it.
Okay, I'll give you brain powder. Do I have coffee anyway? Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's coffee coming in a minute.
So, you have one of these with it. So, I'll talk you through this. So, brain powder is something I developed because I always need a boost of focus, particularly during times of, like, during the middle of the day.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, it's that one. I'm such a 2 o'clock, 3 o'clock snob.
However, you know, you're constantly having coffee and everything like that. I needed something that. What's this one? So, this is, you're going to have a Pina Colada.
Amazing. Pina Colada flavour. I love this packaging as well.
It's so, it's so funny. I know. It's just brilliant.
Hysterical, isn't it? It's absolutely brilliant, yeah. So, this brain powder is, so, it's my go-to at WillPowders, really, because, I mean, we need, we need to spin so many plates. Yeah.
And then you hit, like, 4 o'clock. And bearing in mind, you're coming to the end of the office day, but my day's just beginning with the kids as well. Yeah.
So, there's all, like, the, and I find it really boring, like, the homework, the washing, the getting the bags together, putting up of art projects, the arguing, that I don't want that for my tea, all that, if I'm brain dead, I'm an arsehole, you know, I'm really snappy. Yeah. So, what do you do? You can't have coffee, because apparently that's going to keep you awake all night.
So, I developed this with an amino acid called L-Theanine, which is that we actually sell at WillPowders in a standalone, because it reduces anxiety, but it also takes the edge off caffeine, so you don't suffer insomnia later. So, if you were just to have a coffee, fair enough, but I like everything supercharged, which is what these are. And they've got, they've got what they, it's called Nootropics, which sounds a bit wacky, but really, it was developed by Silicon Valley for the coders, and it's for high concentration.
(2:45 - 3:07)
Do you mind if we use that? I mean, that's terrible, isn't it? We do sell a whizzer, but, you know, I'm lucky I turn up, to be honest, because I've got so much shit going on. So, Nootropics were developed in Silicon Valley, and me being me, I'm always trying to optimise my brain, because I get so distracted so easy, I get, I need constant hits of adrenaline. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(3:07 - 3:36)
And excitement. So, when I'm faced with the mundane, like school run, or tax meeting, I have to have this to keep going, because otherwise I'll start drifting, and this wastes everyone's time, or I'll just get exhausted, and, you know, and snap at the kids. So, it's about knowing how to hijack your brain at the appropriate times, how to manufacture the best possible sleep, or the best possible energy at the right time of day, you know, and, so, Brainpowder's got, like, 11 different Nootropics in.
(3:36 - 3:46)
I mean, there's nothing too wacky, so, like, one of the biggest Nootropics in the world is caffeine. You know? Right, right. However, with some caffeine, you get, well, you can get the jitters.
(3:46 - 3:50)
Yeah. So, that's why I always have coffee with Calm. With Calm.
(3:50 - 3:55)
Yeah. Because often you get the jitters from mouldy coffee. Yeah.
(3:55 - 4:06)
You know, I always go for Pret, actually. If I'm in, if there's a choice, I go for Pret, because it's organic, and I don't get the jitters from that. But anywhere else, I'll always have a calm, because the moulds can just rev up that anxiety.
(4:07 - 4:22)
Obviously, your brain doesn't want mould in it, so it's going to make you anxious and try and tell you to stop it, but you need the energy, so it's like, I need to liven up, but I don't want to feel anxious. So, for me, who overdoes everything, to have that buffer and to walk around with these is great. So, bottoms up.
(4:22 - 4:24)
Cheers. Cheers. It's amazing.
(4:24 - 4:27)
I love it. I love a bit of hack. Cheers.
(4:28 - 4:35)
And yeah, and that's what it is, being able to hack into your day, just to get you through it. Yeah. And make you feel in control.
(4:35 - 4:42)
For me, WillPowders is all about control, and that's what I was lacking before. I just felt flatlined. Yeah.
(4:42 - 4:45)
You know. Yeah. And I think we all want to feel controlled.
(4:45 - 5:04)
It's really exciting. I mean, who would have thought Silicon Valley coders would influence this school mum run person? It's funny, we'll come on to it, because I was just saying, I was saying to Susie, I was thinking about it a lot this morning, and you know, you read about biohacking, and it is all kind of Californian men who do it. The bros.
(5:04 - 5:13)
Yeah, and I just don't know any women doing it. Well, I mean, there's a few, but, and she's fabulous. She's called Aggie.
(5:14 - 9:32)
Now, I was watching a reel of hers, and she goes, this is what I do as the CEO of a biohacking company who lives in Bali and California. I get up in the morning and I journal. Oh, do you? Well, that's nice, and then I meditate in the sun, and I'm looking at my life, and I'm swearing up the stairs, going, what the fuck the PE kit, and I'm like, oh yeah, and then she gets in the back of her motorbike with her new husband, and then they go and then they go and do like all their meetings outside, getting actual daylight, and I'm there, in fucking Lancashire in the pissing rain, you know, with me bloody dry robe on, indoors, because the MD won't put the heating on, and I'm like, this is the antithesis of the other biohacker, you know, and you just think, well, I mean, if I was like 35, I think she's maybe 30, I'd probably go to Bali, but no, I'm stuck in Lancashire, and that's me lot, so I have got, I think I'm more of a biohacker than her, because I’d be in a fabulous mood if I had all that, the trick comes when you're stuck, in the middle of the UK, on a shitty January afternoon, January the 45th, and you're like, right, what can I do to shine a little bit of light into my life, and I think that's, that hyperfocuses me, so if we can feel great in these conditions, imagine how we'll feel when we trip trop off down to Santa Monica, and Bali, and whatever, I bet she's never travelled with four kids in an airport either, so that's another challenge for her, so I think, and the fact that you highlighted that, all the biohackers are bros, and I said, this is interesting, because I'm looking at your Dave Asprey, or the Huberman's, who tells you you've got to wait an hour before you have coffee, so tell me exactly, who's got an hour, who's got the patience, you know, get up an hour early, some of the kids are up at six, does that mean you're getting up at five, no, yeah, it's a lot, it's, yeah, it's very bro heavy, and I think, the true biohackers are women, because we have been trying to hack our health, I think, since we all got shoved on the pill, for acne, yeah, then the weight gain came on, then the dieting and the Slim Fast came in, then obviously, the metabolic flexibility went out the window, because we had low fat, so obviously, low fat, low calorie, which meant, brain deadness, you know, brain fog, low mood, because your brain's not getting the saturated fats and the cholesterol that it needs to function, low salt, so you've got no electrolytes in your brain, which, obviously, your brain is electrical, so you need the electrolytes to kick your brain off, so then you go on antidepressants, and then you get told, chill out, relax, treat yourself, have a glass of wine, have a cake, you know, your dessert, and I'm like, oh my god, no wonder we have, we've ended up here, so when you Dave Asprey and your Hubermans are telling me that they're biohackers, I'm like, no, don't, do not even compare your little drop in testosterone when you're 75 with my fucking fluctuating hormones that started at 30, and I've had the pill, thyroid, metformin, antidepressants, mood stabilizers shoved down my neck, and, you know, it's just a prescription cascade of what we go through, and then all of a sudden, you're like, oh yeah, sorry, we've got a health crisis with women with the menopause, and you're like, no shit, Sherlock, have you seen where we came from? So I think the true, and it's a force for good, with me being so open and honest, and there's no flies on me, because I'm like, this is the reality, you know, and it's very imperfect, but it's very doable, and we've all got our scars, every single woman I speak to has earned their stripes, no matter what, by the time you hit 40, you're like, come on then, and it's like, it's a camaraderie, it's like, we're all in the trenches, it's like World War I, and you're just like, just send another load of troops to the front line again, you know, because it's relentless, you know, so I think there's a, I'm trying to create a movement of absolute honesty, and I think that's why my Instagram took off, because you can't buy me, I've no affiliates, you know, I get sent things all the time, do you want to advertise this, if I know it's a great product, I'll do it for free, just give my audience a discount, cheers love, and that's it, bring us out of it.
(9:32 - 13:06)
Is there another one there in time? Yeah, one more, brilliant, so that brings an element of trust, that I'm unaffiliated, you know, I'm going to do, I'm starting a podcast soon, and I'm not going to take sponsorship, no, fuck off, I'm not there for the money, I'm there for the information, because I've got a great little company called WillPowders, it's fine, obviously I'm affiliated to that, but everything else is up for grabs, let's have a look, does this work? So, for example, on my page, I'll talk about sourdough, and then this company came out of nowhere, this Jason's Sourdough, and I'm like, great, they've looked at the grains, fantastic, I really like them, and do you want to do an affiliate programme? I absolutely don't, I'm just going to raise awareness, because it makes it easier for us lot to get on, however, I would call them out, do not try to sell me protein in bread, because that's bullshit, you know, so I'm always going to call them out, yeah, exactly, and I think that's why our community has mushroomed, because it's like, oh, thank God, no one's getting paid, there's no backhanders, right, yeah, and that's why, because people can trust it, you're in Lancashire, yeah, whereabouts? Basically, next stop is the Lake District, right in the, basically the most northern part of Lancashire, yeah, it's Clitheroe. But you're from Wigan, just a little bit further down, because you went to school with a very dear friend of mine, Faye, oh no way, yeah, thank you so much, yeah, she said send love, oh, thanks, yeah, because I was on the phone to her the other day, and I said we were meeting, and she said, yeah, she has the fondest memories, always mental, she said you were really fun and very kind, yeah, so you didn't grow up in Bolton? No, I just went to Bolton school, which was like, really strict, yeah, oh my God, how they got a GCSE out of me, I don't know, and do you know what, that kind of brings me back as well, because I did better back then because it was exams, so I don't do good with course work, and that brings it back to this sort of thing, I have to have last minute in mind, that's how I operate, and it all makes sense to me now, yeah, it's like a form of ADHD, which is, I don't, I don't like sitting under that umbrella, because I don't medicate for it, I don't allow for it, but it explains a lot as to why I'm extremely last minute, it's because I need the adrenaline, and I need the push, and I see that in a couple of my kids, and the two aren't, so you're like, wow, it is a thing, how old are they all now? Okay, we've got 17 at the top, number one, number two is 13, number three is 11, number four is nine, oh, God, that's a lot of testosterone, and we live in a really small house, so you can't swing your cat, we've got these two dogs, oh my God, so I've given up, I don't paint the walls, nothing, I've just given up, I said, we'll eventually have a really nice house, my husband's a builder by trade, so we will build a bigger house, but right now, we're focusing on the business, and do you know what, everything gets broke, so I'm like, oh just fuck it, I give up, I'm just like, literally, there was rugby balls going past my head, I'm like, what are you doing? What are you doing? And then it's like, let's play hip hop, I'm like, my anxiety, guys.
So, the way this came about, I wish you could tell me what the conversation was that we were having, and I don't know what it was, so I was just at my friend's house for dinner, Friday before last, and, do you know Melissa Hemsley? She's a cook. I know exactly what you mean, amazing books.
(13:06 - 13:15)
I think we've got mutual friends, I'm sure you probably do, and I was at her house. Is she married to a Mancunian? No. Maybe her sister is.
(13:15 - 13:19)
I think so. I think Jasmine might be married to a Mancunian, I think Nick might be a Mancunian. Right, okay.
(13:19 - 13:46)
Anyway. There's a link there with one of my old mates from Manchester. Her name has come up a few times, she's a food activist as well as being a cook, but I can't remember what we were talking about, but you came up in conversation, and both her and my friend Ruth said, you should have a look at what Davinia is doing, it's really interesting about the biohacking, and I just had no idea, and I was like, and then I went on your Instagram and I was like, oh my god, this is amazing.
(13:46 - 14:09)
I'm so excited, as a consumer. So much to buy and try. But it's really interesting, because I am so nerdily fascinated by, you know, I think, we've all been told so much of what we're experiencing is in our heads, because we are sentient beings, and we try to make meaning out of everything that happens to us.
(14:09 - 16:02)
So, I did this piece about anxiety a couple years ago, and it was fascinating talking to experts about GABA and glutamate, you know, and you're just like, fuck, okay, because what's actually happening is in your body, not in your head, but because we're mad human beings, we're just like, what does it mean, what does it mean, everybody hates me, you know, and so I am so fascinated by the idea of being able to tweak, you know, what is essentially just biological, and if you feel psychotic, you know, and I think, the fact that we've not connected that the, I mean, general sort of medicine treats everything in isolation, doesn't it? So departments, like in a department store, so you've got habadashery over here, and then you've got lighting over here, and it's like, as if, and the fact that we've never sort of clicked until recently that what you eat does impact your mood, I mean, it's just like the best hack of all, I mean, is being fat-fueled during the day gives you sustained energy and focus, and you can boost it with a little bit of nootropics here, you know, I mean, I have, like a WillPowders fatty coffee the minute I get up, and I just stay away from carbs all day, now that would have been obscene for me to think about, because I'm like, no, you must have your granola, you've got to have your overnight oats, but it actually dampens down my ability to think and focus, so I hack that towards the end of the day, when I would have, like, your carbs and everything, and then boom, you've got your carb coma, when you're sitting down, you know, you've finished sorting the kids out, the uniform's been done, and then you have your carbs, and you're mopping up your gravy with your Jason sourdough, and all of a sudden, you have dampened down, you have increased GABA, and you have dampened down cortisol, and do you know what, you've got a couple more hours before bed, and you actually, you know, you've stoned, on bread. You know, I mean, what? But why are we telling, why are we saying you're going to have a meal deal at lunch time, or at 11 o'clock? I mean, I've just started the day.
(16:02 - 16:14)
Well, I mean, that's kind of like, it's more tired and more hungry than porridge. I know. It's like, why would you do that? I mean, some people get on with it fine, but I'm like, have you really checked in with yourself? No.
(16:14 - 16:51)
Have you really checked in with, I mean, the best thing to do, and it sounds a bit barley, but it's like, just kind of like, do a mood diary, just in your phone, as you eat, give yourself 20 minutes, how do you feel now? Are you satiated? Are you thinking about your next snack? Has it given you a hunger, well, not a real hunger, it's more of a snacking cue, and I was really surprised, this was like years ago when I first started doing it, like, what was making me picky afterwards. I'm like, I think I might get, do you know, I might have a Twix. What? You know, it's 11 o'clock in the morning, what are you getting Twix's for? But it's insane.
(16:51 - 16:55)
I revert back to 80's palate. Yeah. Kick off that craving.
(16:55 - 17:06)
Well, I've some energy to light now. Yeah, why not? Wagon wheels, bring it, yeah.
So, how did you first find out about it? And, because, I mean, your knowledge is incredible.
(17:06 - 17:37)
I mean, like, you do, I'm not joking when I say you should have a telly show about it, like, it's just, well, you are on Instagram essentially, but, I mean, it's complicated stuff, and, once it resonates, it's actually more common sense than anything. right. You know, because if you sort of think about, you know, we have so many studies out there, and I think that's where it's gotten wrong, because I could literally do a million Instagrams about a study says this, and they just constantly conflict.
(17:37 - 18:42)
However, I think we've forgotten to use our intuition a little bit, and we get force fed basically what big food want us to think, because it's very profitable, it's very easy to jump on someone's low energy, and, you know, I mean, how much is it for a brownie in Costa? You know, you know what I mean? It's like they're churning them over. It must cost about, I'd say about three pence to make, and you know, their net profit's fabulous, and it's a treat, and it's, you know, energy, or whole grain, and before you know it, you're in the trap, but it's kind of like being able to take a step back and look at yourself, and feel exactly what the impact of that is, and then you've got your own barometer, and I came about it when I was, it was actually Matthew, I'd like to take all the credit, but he’ll go mad and say no it wasn't you, you were eating pot noodles in bed watching the telly, and this is true, this is true, I'm afraid to say, and he stumbled across Dave Asprey. Okay.
(18:43 - 21:03)
He wouldn't have been my go-to, I'll be honest with you, you know, I wasn't resonating with Dave, but, I don't think women do, do we? No we don't, we get a little bit condescending, and yeah, so I think that's why I'm very, very adamant about our Facebook group, and how they, it's all very, it's all very anecdotal, and you've got N of 1 studies saying the same thing, and it's like, and it's not condescending, and it's really accessible, and it's not very high-brow, and like, and these guys, I mean, wow, their memories, I mean, it's quite something. The confidence, the confidence is quite, so that's why I like what we've got going on with the WillPowders, it's tongue in cheek, sort of, I've tried everything, I've got the gift of desperation here, and it's the community, and it's the community, and so, I've kind of like, laid the foundations, like in my first book, there's a sort of two-week reset, there's nothing crazy, you know, it's kind of like, giving people the tools to check in, and wow, am I already hungry again, what triggered that, what happened 20 minutes ago, what happened an hour ago, and it was that that was bugging me about myself, I was constantly snacking on the granola’s, cereals, huge fan of Weetabix, huge, mass major, but I was finding things like emptying the dishwasher arduous, and, oh, there was a lot of huffing and puffing, and, you know, taking the kids for a walk, oh, God, prime example, I was living in London at the time, if I go to the big Tesco in West London, if there wasn't a parking space right next to mother and baby, bearing in mind the kids were out of prams, so I had no excuse, right next to mother and baby, I'd literally drive and go home, because my brain was so without fuel, that it was trying to preserve my physical energy at all costs, even though I was overweight and inflamed, you know, I was way, much bigger than I am now, I was swimming in water essentially, swimming in cellulite, but it was my brain that was flat, and it was telling me go home, so I'd drive home, and then try and do an online order, and then before I got to check out, forget it, and then I'm saying to Matt will you pick up something for tea, I mean, it was that. So how long ago was this? So I was pushing about, that must be 10 years now.
(21:04 - 21:52)
Yeah, so late, so you were mid-30s? Yes, so I feel, so I'm 47 now, so maybe it was a bit longer actually, it's about 12 years, so I feel younger now than then, because I was so, I mean, it was like everything was an effort, you know, everything was, I couldn't be bothered even like, like, meeting up with people, very kind of isolated, not because I had social anxiety, just couldn’t be arsed. just no energy. No, yeah, yeah, it's just like, you know, and I didn't have wine to lean into, so, and that was sugar and that wasn't working, because, you know, I wasn't getting any sugar bomb boost, so it was like, do you know what, I might just watch Strictly and just call it a night, I mean, that's what, you know, that's not what someone at 35 should be doing.
(21:52 - 22:11)
And it's also very hard to imagine you not being energetic, you have so much energy. Yeah, and it's only because I changed my fuel source thanks to Dave in San Francisco. So talk me through it, so Matt discovers this, so, yeah, so I'd never drank coffee before, because, first of all, I've been told it gives you cellulite and it's bad for you, so you must never have that.
(22:12 - 22:49)
Also, like, when everyone started drinking, like, coffee shop, like, Friends, and that started out, I discovered the pub, so I'm like, why on earth would you go to a coffee shop when you can go to the pub? So, I missed that whole revolution, you know, the coffee shop thing. So, and also, you've seen the jitters, I didn't like the anxiety, so I've had maybe two coffees, I'm like, oh my god, it's horrific, I don't want that. Anyway, fast forward, like, 20 odd years, Matt's a huge coffee drinker, loves it, like, real connoisseur, complete moron with it, I'm like, this is taking quite a lot of time, but he started, like, talking about this MCT oil.
(22:49 - 27:44)
Right, so, brace, MCT oil is, it's just part of a, it's a fatty acid that's found in coconut oil, and it's only got eight carbon atoms in it, so, so vegetable oil's got 48, so this has got eight carbon atoms, which makes it very unique, so it avoids the digestive system, and it goes via the lymphatic system straight into the liver, right, so you're not kicking off digestion or anything, it's very, very unique, and what it does down the line down there, the liver, through an enzymatic process, will convert these little, this oil, that I've blended into my coffee, and it doesn't separate, because you have to use a blender, this is, like, way, way back before I created the powder, and it turns it into a cappuccino, so it's nothing bizarre, and, what it does in the liver, it converts from this oil into a new type of energy source called a ketone, and a ketone is something that I've obviously, I mean, babies are in ketosis, you know, it's nothing, if you say fast for four days, or maybe less, you go into ketosis, exercise can push you into ketosis, but this, this oil, pushes you straight into ketosis, which, man has always danced with ketosis, it's metabolic flexibility, you've got carbohydrate burning, and then you've got ketone burning, and ketone burning is when you, so, people would say to me, but ancient man would never have got into ketosis, because otherwise he would have died, no, no, no, ancient man, if he had run out of fuel, food, would have gone into ketosis, and the evolutionary uplift of this is more brain energy, the brain suddenly starts using ketones from the liver, straight into the blood stream, to the brain, and all of a sudden you've got, you start fat burning as a fuel, which, you can start taking stores of body fat, the brain then has sustained energy, so ancient man would then be able to hyper focus on hunting, so it's a survival mechanism, and I think, obviously being born in like 1977, I've never been in ketosis, since, I mean even being bottle fed, you know, I've never been in ketosis, ever, so all of a sudden this, it just gave me, the lights went on, a little bit, I mean, I'm not talking boom, I'm not talking like, you know, a glass of champagne or anything, I want to like manage expectations, but all of a sudden I wasn't, I wasn't as slouchy, I wasn't wading through tar, and there was a little bit of optimism, that there was something else out there, bearing in mind I'd been to my doctor, and I said, you know, what's wrong with me? He said, oh well, you're probably depressed, and I'm like, no, I'm just kind of tired, I can't be arsed, it's depression, and I'm like, okay, and the weight and everything, he said, yeah, well, you've had four kids, so, you know, have you tried to, you know, maybe cut it down on calories and exercise, and I went, wow, no, that's new, I can't blunder away without advice, well everything in moderation as well doctor, thanks, woo, top tip, so, I mean, we've all been down there, we've all been told the beige advice, and you know, it's not sustainable, I can't possibly calorie control, I need a lot of calories for the amount of energy I used to, you know, I guess I'm like, you know, pushing 50, and I've still got four kids at home, it's not exactly how evolution would have had us, you know, we would have like long since got rid of the kids, so yeah, I need a lot of calories, and I get that using this keto mechanism, which puts me in a good mood, gives me creativity, gives me optimism, and gives me control of what I want to do with my day, yeah, absolutely, now I can knock back into it, I can go and have myself a sandwich, and then boom, I'm back down into, so that's fine on a Sunday or something, if I'm not undeniable rugby, freezing, but you know, you can dip in and out, and I have now got into a place which I want every woman to be aware of, like metabolic flexibility, so you can dip in and out of your carbs, you can dip in and out of ketosis, and it's up to you, and that is a choice, if I want to suddenly get super lean, which I don't, because I'm lean enough, but if I suddenly wanted to, I think I could do, if I want to get super cosy, round about Christmas time, I can do it, I'll hack my mood, you know, and for me, that is amazing, without medication, without anything, without alcohol, I can hack my mood, I can hack my personality, and there's nothing more freeing than knowing you've got control of your own mind. Absolutely. And there's no downside, there's no calm down.
(27:44 - 28:37)
There's no calm down, you just like, sort of like, whittle down to the day, and then I'm like, right okay guys, that's me done, fend for yourself, clean your own teeth, pick up your own underpants, I am checking out for the day, you know, so, it's a freeing experience, and that's what the feedback on the Wheel Powders, we've got a little, we've got like this Facebook group, I think about 30,000 women on there now, and it's called For Fat's Sake, and like, the FFS, the hashtag FFS is what we all fuck's sake are doing all the time, and I just thought, God, if we could just say for fat's sake, just have a fat bomb, things will get better, your brain will start working better, and that's why I call it For Fat's Sake, because it's just that, the eye roll, another ear roll from school. So, when did you launch the company? 21. Okay.
(28:37 - 28:40)
Was it 21? 21, three years old. Yeah. Yeah.
(28:40 - 28:48)
I mean, it's incredible, I mean, your range is amazing. And we've got more and more coming out, I mean. And was that when the first book came out as well? Yeah.
(28:48 - 29:59)
Yeah, at the same time. Yeah, so it was a case of, I was doing all these things in my first book, It's Not a Diet, and I have to, like, you know, bring it, to get good quality MCT, it was really tricky, you've got to know your supplier, and then, obviously, I want to know the provenance of everything, because that's what we forget in the supermarket, we look at the front, not the back, where's it from? Where are your prawns from? From Vietnam? No, not from Vietnam, they're farmed, put it back, and it's knowing all these tricks and being able to read the back of the label, and that's what I wanted to put front and centre of our stuff, so our collagen is Swiss, I've visited the farms, there's not another collagen manufacturer on the planet that has stood next to their cows, not one, and I'm like, if anyone's trying to sell me marine collagen, I'm like, okay, show me the fish that are wild, because if I can't, as a manufacturer, I can't find the true source, how can you? And so, I'm like, for me, it's provenance is key, like our bone broth and protein, the whole regenerative farming is fundamental for the environmental impact as well, but it's about the food chain, the cows eat excellent grass, they’re outside, then that is, that channel,
Then that changes their gut microbiome, their immunity, their fat profile. That builds better bones. So our bone broth has been affected by where the cows are raised and how they've been fed, and the amount of light exposure, yada, yada, yada.
(30:12 - 30:25)
And this is like, the Vikings are frigging amazing at bone broth. I mean, every single civilization on the planet has used bone broth as a base. Up until our grandmothers, or maybe even our mothers, stopped.
(30:25 - 30:29)
And then we got instant gravy. Absolutely. So we've all been raised on bone broth.
(30:30 - 30:36)
Frigging stews, rubbish, totally boring. But you know what? Sustenance. And that's what we've forgotten.
(30:36 - 30:48)
And I want to re-bring that back. Unfortunately, our palates have been hijacked by bliss point foods. And it's no secret that we have mathematicians in the food companies, not food scientists. We have mathematicians who chart on a bell curve the exact point at which a food becomes most addicting, and it's called a bliss point food. And that is what's hijacked our palates from baby milk up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And my kids still have sweets, and it worries me because I know what's happening, but I'm not going to have them, you know, those kids. Yeah. Because they're at a party or whatever.
Have your bloody blue sweet Haribos, I'll deal with the chaos in a minute. Yeah. However, that's why I've got our protein.
(31:20 - 31:31)
We started with a milk chocolate flavour and a vanilla flavour. So basically, when mums ask me, is it okay for kids to eat, which is crazy, and I think they're scared of protein for their kids. Yeah. I mean, that's how raw food is made. And I'm like, think of it as oxtail soup, but it tastes like Mr. Whippy. Get it down your kids. Yeah. Get it down you. Just, and how much can I have? I said, well, until you're full. Yeah. This is what we're doing. It's like, oh, my God, we have all these numbers, and we've been told not to trust our own instincts. Yeah. And it's absolutely wild. Yeah.
(31:54 - 32:00)
And people write to me and go, do you know what? I've not had a snack for a week. I've just had, like, three meals a day. Yeah. And you're like, fucking hell, that's a freedom from addiction, right? Right. That is a freedom from the endless, I mean, the amount of money you save long term when you start doing this, and you're not gathering the snack. Yeah, you're not going out to Costa and getting a cookie. Yeah, it's relentless. But you've got no control of it, because you're sat there just typing away, and all of a sudden, bing, a light goes on. Do you know what I fancy? I fancy a KitKat. Yeah, where the fuck did KitKat come from? You know, someone mentioned it last Tuesday, and then it's in your head. And it's like, wallop, the emotional memory. So that's why I did WillPowders as a little bit of a high street palate. We are developing proteins that will be dark chocolate. Right. But 101, I miss dairy milk. Yeah. Dairy milk, I miss it. You know when, obviously, you've got all these influencers and everything. Well, just have a handful of nuts and a square of dark chocolate. And I'm like, mate, that's not going to do it. That's not going to work. You don't know what you’re dealing with here. No, no. I'm talking about one of these, a fruit and nut. And that's why I wanted to bridge that gap.
(33:05 - 33:14)
Yeah. Because we can all be very virtuous and have a few seeds in a corner + dark chocolate. But the reality is, there's a lot of us who really struggle with that high street palate.
But I am bringing out a dark chocolate. Cool. Which is very nice, I'm told by the dark chocolate fans.
And a neutral one. Because I want mums and dads to understand that you can put our products in food. So when you've got kids who are super fussy, for example, the pasta dish.
Put the pasta on, pasta sauce. And sometimes that's all I can be arsed to do because I’m knackered. Yeah, yeah. I’ve hit my capacity. All I'll do is I'll sprinkle in a big tablespoon of collagen, the building blocks for life, amino acids. The kids can't smell it. They can't taste it. And boom. At least I know they're getting a decent protein.
I mean, when we had the whole Prime phenomenon, and the kids were breaking up in summer last year. Please can I get this Prime? And then I’m at ASDA at three in the morning getting Prime, I just put some collagen in. Yeah. And they don't taste it. No. And then Prime's gone. And it's done. And that itch is scratched. And then we're moving on to something else.
(34:14 - 35:19)
It's ridiculous. So, Yeah, I think it's about being able to hack into them as well.
And know that you're... Absolutely. Sneaky nutrition we call it. They don't know what they're having. And like I've got to just give up with the school. I'm going to be one of those ninjas that go out. There's only so many battles you can fight. So I top and tail the day. Just do what you can. Top and tail the day. They have bacon and eggs in the morning. Takes me two seconds to do. And then they have their smoothie. And then at the end of the day they have meat and veg. Yeah. And maybe a smoothie again.
But during the middle of the day, I know they're having pizza and pasta. And the school said they've got a salad bar. I'm like, what ten-year-old's going to go to a salad bar? And by the way, what nutrition is that going to give them anyway? You should give them a bit of a steak. Nothing but sweet lettuce. Yeah. Exactly.
(35:00 - 35:06)
So what's your... So you... I think I read you don't eat really until the evening. No, I don't really. No.I don't need to... Do you just have collagen and... I mean, that all just sounded to me like insane. But I don't get the craving anymore. And it's not because I'm like underweight or anything. I'm a healthy 10 stone. I'm 5'5". And I'm like pure muscle.
You look amazing. And so it's not like... I am obsessed with bone density. I'm obsessed with muscle mass.
(35:26 - 35:35)
So I really do... I mean, I have... Throughout the day I have a lot of fat for my brain. I run most days. Again, for my brain. But I'm in like this sort of ketone-fueled... Like sort of tunnel. So you have... What, some of the... So I'll talk you through a day. Yeah, talk us through it.
Let's see what we got here. Yeah. I've got you another one of these.
So I'll tell you what. I get up in the morning. I'm always first up. I will have some of our... This is our WillPowder’s Electrotide, which is unique because, first of all, you're not going to use sucralose in it. You've only got stevia, which is blood sugar steady. It doesn't impact the gut. It doesn't impact the hormones. It's absolutely a brilliant, brilliant swap out for sugar or any of those nasties. That's the only one I'll have, stevia. Or allulose, but it's not yet available in the UK. So that'll be coming out soon. I think it's been passed in Australia. It's already in America. Allulose is very good for diabetes, but of course we're probably about five years behind on that because that's how we roll in the UK.
(36:32 - 36:43)
So the reason why I developed ElectroTide is because water retention. Right. So we've put some diuretics in there, which are dandelion leaf horsetail tea. So you know that if you don't sleep with the window open, you get puffy face or someone's had a glass of wine or whatever. We just... Our lymph system just isn't as good as it should be, really. So it's kind of like flushing that out first thing in the morning. But like I alluded to earlier, the most important currency in your brain is a combination of fat and electricity, hence electrolytes. Yeah, yeah. So before I even... Well, I've actually put the kettle on as I'm making this.
Yeah. So I will have an ElectroTide with some water, throw it down my neck, and then I'll get a black coffee, and I will mix in some... Let's see. Some WillPowders Keto Powder.
So this is a mixture of grass-fed butter. Grass-fed's better. Yeah, yeah, because of the food chain. And the MCT oil, which I've powdered, and it's got a tiny, tiny bit of ketogenic-friendly fibre in to slow the digestion. So what I did was when I first started MCT oil, because me being me, I thought, well, one teaspoon's great, but what's five tablespoons going to do? Naturally, progressing into... And as anyone who is not fat-adapted will tell you, you'll poo yourself. Yeah.
(38:00 - 38:07)
So, warning. So that's why I developed this, because I know most women, like me, will just go, I'll try anything. Yeah. Ten of them. Ten of them. So, yeah, so we've got this, and it's basically like a really healthy sort of like, like a coffee mate. Yeah. And that's how I have to describe it to my dad, or my uncles. I think of it as coffee mate, but... And then they're fine with it. Oh, you should have said, love. You should have said. So this goes in.
(38:24 - 38:29)
It just makes it into a really creamy butter. Again, it's those... The ketones are in there. The butter's in there. So remember, if you're going to absorb any vitamins, you need fat present. So you've got all the fatty acids, and the vitamins, and butyric acid in butter, which heals the gut. Right. Because obviously, if you're born in the 70s, raised in the 80s, your gut's wrecked. Yeah. Fact.
(38:43 - 39:01)
So we, you know, and now, fortunately, doctors are acknowledging leaky gut, even though they call it, I think they call it intestinal permeability, it’s leaky gut. So now they say, okay, we do have a leaky gut problem, which brings me on to bovine collagen, which is amazing for healing the gut. Right.
(39:01 - 39:09)
Of course it is. It's great for skin, but I'm more interested in the skin inside than the skin outside, I'll be honest with you. Because if the skin inside works, my mood's better. Because you have, obviously, the gut-brain connection. If your gut is inflamed or not, or leaking, or permeable, you're not going to manufacture and feel good hormones. Yeah. And that, for me, is the end goal. I want my mental health, and then the physical health will come. So I've got this thing, feed the brain and the body will follow.
(39:31 - 39:59)
So don't worry about the weight, or what you look like, because as soon as you start nutritionally satisfying your brain, you're not going to reach for the snacks, you are going to have more energy, you will actually go for a little walk, you will get outside, you will boost your own dopamine by getting daylight, and you will sleep better, and push yourself into ketosis, during that deep sleep. And it's just that, that morning routine, that electrolytes, and the coffee, feeding my brain, sets me up for the day. And I am a much better human being to live with. With myself, and with everyone else. So, that's, and, nutrition and everything is made so complicated, but I'm like, if you can do one thing, just hack that morning, that first morning. Yeah.
(40:14 - 40:24)
Forget about the chanting, the journaling, the charging of crystals, the fucking grounding, the deep breath work, just do that. Yeah. You know, get the news on, and crack on with your day. You know? So, for me, I needed something that was a bit more into reality, and it was just that. I mean, and I think, that speaks to, the set, 99.9%, apart from that top 1% that have time to channel, to journal, and charge for sleep. and I think, it's problematic, because I think, wellness can get so woo, for so many people. It's really, really triggering. It's fucking triggering. I mean, as you say, it's not grounded in reality.
(40:53 - 40:58)
No, and I'm in the business, and I'm getting triggered. I know it's bullshit. I know what it's like behind set. I know no one looks like that. I know the sunlight doesn't hit the eyes like that. It's bullshit. And I'm getting triggered. You know, so it's like, let's bring it back down to reality. And is it going well? Really well. I mean, you can see that. Well, I mean, the fact my friends talking. Yeah, well, this is it.
(41:13 - 41:19)
I'm just like, I love it when stories happen like that. Well, I mean, obviously, Susie was going to talk to me anyway. I know. Which is really funny. Serendipity. We could say it's a little bit woo-woo. It is a bit woo-woo. It is a bit barley, isn't it? A bit woo-woo. She was just like, oh my God, I can't believe you're coming to me. She was like, I was going to come to you. But I think that that shows that you are tapping into the right audience. Well, this is, well, I mean, we get about 700 reviews on our website every week.
(41:40 - 41:42)
Wow. And that is just people volunteering. Yeah, I love it. I'm loving it. This is great. The kids are having it. You know, my husband's having it. Because remember, we are the gateway to the next generation, but also to the guys. Matt doesn't have a fucking clue what we buy.
Why have we not got that? Why don't you go to Tesco and get it for yourself then? Oh, we've got the lamb in again. I'm like, honestly, I do not have the monopoly on the groceries. So, we are the gateway.
(42:07 - 42:27)
So, I thought you start with the mums and then the kids naturally, by osmosis, they do it. And the dads, I mean, we've got a great new protein now, which is really for like men and women, but I just wanted to get the guys interested because it's got creatine in. Guys know about creatine, and it's got this new fandangle thing, which is actually very old, called Shilajit. It's like a resin. It's like a fabulous, fabulous thing. It's way, way high on the Himalayas. It's like a tar, actually, that's currently being used to not only detox toxic hormones, because what we're never educated on, you actually have to excrete used hormones into the toilet, like oestrogen, and in order to feel the feel-good ones, you know? And so, Shilajit's very good at balancing hormones, and particularly because we've got this epidemic of low testosterone, men and women, and extremely high xanoestrogens. So, oestrogen mimicking, so you get that from makeup, deodorant, perfume, soy, plastic in bottles, microwave food, and we've got all these new endocrine disruptors. So, we need to be able to detox them, to not feel rage, not just female PMT, but mood disorders with men, man boobs, cellulite, sore boobs before you come on. All of this is like toxic oestrogen. So, it's kind of putting it on the radar, really, that, you know, as a family, a family unit, we need to start looking at, you know, ancient nutrition. Absolutely. And it is.
(43:41 - 43:54)
I mean, we're trying to make it as ancient as possible. So, like the bone broth is going to be, um, something you could just grab, shake, go out. I mean, obviously, it is, there's a form of process in it, but it's not an ultra-processed food.
(43:55 - 44:01)
There is no maltodextrin in there. There is no preservatives. There are, I mean, we're just talking dehydration here.
(44:01 - 44:05)
There's no preservatives. There are no xanthan gums. There's no emulsifiers. There's no sunflower or rapeseed or nothing, nothing, which has been really tricky to do. Yeah. And because I'm selling something that is non-addictive, it's like, that's not how you men do it.
You know what I mean? So, it's like the opposite. It's like, it actually makes you stop. it's, that, that, that, that, for me, that's disruptive. But any, but any business plan would be like, but that doesn't work. You need people to want more and more and more. I'm like, well, no, actually. Hopefully, the fact that it makes you feel good is enough. Yeah. But I mean, to be fair, business is going really well. And like I said, it's now community-led. So, I mean, I can't be here, there, and everywhere. So, there's women going into supermarkets, going, oh, look, Neal's Yard (should be Peter’s Yard).
(44:49 - 44:57)
I'm going to put rapeseed oil in their crackers. But this other type of Neal's Yard (Peter’s Yard), they've not. I can't see that because, you know, it's great. And I'm like, freaking hell, the bastards, why have they done that? I'll write to them, you know. And it's great. You know, it's kind of like, you've got to, you've got to, we've got to build so big, that we make such noise, that change happens. And, you know, it's. And that's what makes it sustainable as well. Well, yeah. Because you can't have one place that's sustainable, but it does. No, it's kind of like a bit what's happening over the water, I guess. yeah, okay. We'll leave that. We'll leave that over the water. Do you, I mean, did you ever think, 25 years ago, that, like, wellness would be your business? Oh my god no, And it's like, it just shows you, do not have a clue. I mean, when you make plans, God just flipping laughs. Really? Well, I'm going to show you this curveball. And I think because, I've been so sort of open and transparent about my journey, just not necessarily through choice, just been outed by the press.
(45:51 - 45:59)
Yeah. Or whatever. And by circumstance, that I have been humbled into a position of, you know, there's no, you know, airs and graces. This is me. And if you don't like me, fine. That's a sad, and I'll probably like, keep knocking on your door till you do like me, because I'm still insecure. But it's like, I think people like appreciate that. Okay. That's her history. And this is what she's doing now. And actually, do you know what? That makes sense.
It does make sense that we need to maybe have more calories in our brain. It does make sense that, you know, we have changed our food chain. So phenomenally that I actually got an inflamed brain. My brain feels, I feel sluggish. I feel underwater. And how I articulate it, it's a little bit different. And people relate to it because, you know, they're doing the washing as well. They're trying to clean football boots. They've got someone kicking off, a 17 year old kicking off with a nine year old over Fortnite. And you're like, what? At the same time. So I'm trying to, wear my heart on my sleeve. So people understand that life isn't perfect, but this might help.
(46:50 - 46:52)
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.I'm doing all right for someone who's pretty, you know, who has been really ill with, you know, I mean, I'm not talking about alcoholism. I mean, ill with just like, slack and tiredness and sluggishness. I mean, completely brain, the brain fog, the brain fog, the water retention, the, you know, the aches and pains just, way before. I mean, it's like I was like, I was like a 70 year old. In a 35 year old's existence, just crazy. And that was normal. And that's normal. And I was deemed normal. Oh, you're in the normal parameters.
And you're like, oh, normal is shifted. Yeah. That's super interesting.
(47:31 - 47:44)
So winding back to growing up? what was, so your, your, your dad was, your dad was the businessman, right? Well, mum and dad were. They were together. They were businessmen.
Yeah. So, they got married. So they lived in the same, uh, housing estate in Liverpool.And you know, like you did back then, you met at flipping 14. You started dating at 16 got married at 18. She was a hairdresser. And he was, just like a door to door salesman or whatever. I mean, they did everything. They had a supermarket, the usual. Yeah. In Walton. I remember going when I was a kid.
(48:06 - 48:10)
Aw. I mean, wow. He did, he did fucking well. Yeah, they both did. I mean, they were 50/50. Yeah. Obviously, back in the 80s and 90s, men always take front & centre. But she's just like, whatever. Whatever. Whatever. What was your mum's name? Lynn. Yeah. Um, and what do you remember? Had they sort of done well before you were born? Right.
(48:27 - 48:33)
No. So, no, I remember when we was at working mum, hairdresser. I mean, our house stank of perm and solution. It's really nostalgic. So, I mean, I still get my eyelashes permed, actually. It takes me back to my gran coming round to get her eyelashes done. yeah. Um, which I'm sure isn't very good for you, but I don't care. Like, come on. Come on. It's a net positive, right? Um, yeah. So, growing up, I remember constant, you know, conversations about business and whatever. And I hated it. Do I have to talk about business again? Because I was an only child and it was really boring because, you know, I didn't have anyone really to play with. My cousin would come round every weekend.
(49:05 - 49:27)
But yeah, it was, I mean, no trauma, nothing, which, um, made me scratch my head about why am I an alcoholic? You know, because if you go to any sort of, or you see it on TV, it's always this awful trauma triggered it. Yeah. And I understand now why a trauma would change your hormonal response, your cortisol would be up.
(49:27 - 49:46)
Absolutely. But I couldn't pinpoint anything. So I'm like, so that, my inner monologue was like, you're indulgent, you're spoiled, you're, well actually, as soon as I suddenly realised it was to do with naturally low dopamine, which obviously my parents had because that, they had business to drive their dopamine, then all of a sudden it made sense.
(49:47 - 50:20)
I was reaching for, and also because I'd been raised with this low saturated fat, low calorie, diet, high grain, that was dampening any level of excitement or electricity in my brain. So that was a perfect storm for me to feel flatline. So reaching for a glass of wine, and it was only wine, not beer or anything, very, very strange that that was the go to and I can see why a lot of women, when they hit 40, all of a sudden alcoholism becomes an issue or binge drinking suddenly becomes an issue because it's the sugar, it's the alcohol, it's ramping up dopamine that your brain can no longer access.
(50:21 - 50:35)
Even to like, pay a household bill, do the mundane, which I now understand I can hack differently with ketones and with nootropics. I can do that without reaching for alcohol. And so that for me took a lot of the guilt out of my drinking. I was just chemically substandard. So yeah. It's really interesting, isn't it? When do you think, when do you think you, I mean do you think you grew up with low dopamine? Yeah, because I, yeah, so there's like, obviously girls are never given a diagnosis of ADHD but I was always the scruffiest girl at school. Lost everything. Last minute cramming for exams. Always, always, always last minute. But you were bright. Yeah. You were capable. Of course, yeah. But I mean, that's, but it's the lack of preparation. Never had a pencil case. Literally, dolly daydream. I'd zone out and I'd be thinking and I would be like trying to stimulate my brain with dopamine future seeking, you know? So I'd often zone out. Yeah, it's about the anticipation.
(51:24 - 51:41)
Yeah, so I'd be looking and in a fantasy world, dolly daydream, class clown, usual sort of stuff. And then, yeah, so when I decided to walk out my A-levels and become an actor, my dad at home went, what? Yes, yes, yes, exactly. So I'm a huge risk taker as well, just naturally. I'll always see the, I'll always see the upturn of something rather than the down, so I'm very much, and a lot of entrepreneurs are like that. I'm like, of course I'm gonna fucking take the risk, why wouldn't I? Whereas my best friend is the opposite. She's my best friend from school, from Bolton and she's like, what are you doing risking that? And I'm like, well, why not? She's like, because for me it makes absolute sense to take some, to risk this, to put myself out there and that's why I'm a chronic oversharer.
(52:12 - 52:57)
That's why I constantly, I'll put everything on black because I know it's gonna win, you know? And I'm very much like that and it's a certain person that does that and now I understand that evolutionally that's what I would've done in a tribe and I always try and roll it back to how would this have worked out? So, for example, I'm easily distracted because my periphery is so good because as hunter-gatherers you needed people who would always look out for danger so I'm always distracted, always in school, in meetings I'm always off. I jump up and down all the time. You know, I have to move all the time so I would've definitely been a hunter-gatherer whereas I've got a friend who's so cosy with the kids, wants cuddles all the time, storytelling and that's where she gets her rush from whereas I'm not like that.
(52:57 - 53:32)
I'm like, come on kids, we're gonna go for a run and they're like, I said, come on, let's go and do it and I get really invested in watching them at football matches and stuff but I can see that I would've been someone who would've, I would've gone over that next mountain just to check what's there. I'd have gone through the waterfall, I love cold exposure, I love the dopamine rush, I do that whereas some people, that's why the one-size-fits-all approach doesn't work because we are a tribe and women who love yoga, how? I'd love to, I'd love to because I'm sure it's very good for you but you're never gonna get me to do it. I've tried so many times.
(53:33 - 54:05)
I get out, I run, I listen to house music, I take a load of nootropics and I get goosebumps all over me and I get flashbacks back to the Hacienda and that is, and then that is before a meeting. You know, and then all of a sudden I can like focus and understand because I've accessed dopamine. I've got daylight in my eyes, I've got cold on my skin, I'm in nature, I've got my dogs running next to me and I've got, I've got somewhere that I've got a euphoric recall that I tap into every single morning I'll do that whereas a friend of mine will go and do some nice yoga and I'm like, she feels energised by it.
(54:06 - 54:19)
So for me, it's being able to look at you, we are a tribe and we need to remember that and we're all different. We are all different. But you know, and it's like there's little nuances you have and I find it interesting. Really? It is fascinating. I love spin, I love intense reformer pilates, they do one where you bounce and jump at the same time. Of course you do, let's just layer in a madness. Another layer of madness. It's completely mental. I mean in yoga I'm just like, oh God.
(54:38 - 55:08)
Yeah, but as you say, we're all different. So when you were a teenager, how did the dopamine seeking manifest? Did you start partying quite young? So yeah, I came and I was talking to my friend about it how we used to go to like nightclubs and my poor dad and mum used to have to pick us up because they were scared because I said I will go out and they did a deal with my best mate's mum and they used to like go and pick us up from Cream or Hacienda at four in the morning. Oh my God. At four in the morning. I'm like, but I tell you what, it was the best time and it proves that because I still tap back into that rush of adrenaline like you hear and you hear that guttural house music and for me, I just, oh, I'm just back there and the emotional recall is so clear because first of all, I wasn't drinking back then. I was there for the love of the game and the excitement and the people and the whole vibe in like 94 was amazing.
(55:40 - 55:56)
We'd go, we'd get like a lift to Cream in Liverpool and then just get the last two hours in the Hacienda and end up with some actors in Cheetham Hill and I'm like, what the fuck? 15? But again, I was just like, you know, and nothing ever, nothing bad ever happened to me. Nothing. And that to me is what I constantly tried to recreate.
(55:57 - 56:18)
That energy and stuff but you can never create it so I think those years, those teenage years and I feel sorry for the kids now because there's no nightclub for them. you could have five million pounds to go to Glastonbury and I'm like, it's full of flipping people who should know better and I'm like, I'm looking at my son who's 17 and I'm like, I'm going to take you to the Hacienda to the Warehouse Project. I'm going to take him and I'm like, oh.
And also like, people would buy your drink. I mean, people would buy your drink but you could go out with very little money when we were teenagers. £10? How I got home? Nobody knows. Claire and I always say, what's in God's name? Because I look at my kids but then if you roll it back a generation before it's like the swinging 60s and everything but I mean, I loved that. I mean, I had the best time. Obviously, being able to study and do that was tricky but you've got the energy and you've got the optimism and you've got, you know, and that's how I still feel now. I still get excited now. So it's recapturing that youth with a bit of a wiser head. One would have.
(56:56 - 57:23)
So would you say you walked out of your A-Levels to become an actress? Literally, was that when you just were like, oh, I might want to act? Where did it come from? Let me see. So I used to do like catalogue modelling to pay for, to go out to the clubs so like Macro and stuff and I've still got my best mates and my friends got it. I've got like six mates from school from that era, you know, and we're all on WhatsApp and it's, like everyone's, no one can ever read it. Everyone's, schoolmates, WhatsApp, may no one ever see what we type. So one of my best mates, Sophie, her and I met and we were doing a Macro job and our agent at the time, Manchester agency, said, can you act? And I'm like, yeah. And they said, there's an audition for Hollyoaks and I thought, yeah, I'll give it a go.
(57:47 - 58:18)
So, yeah, I went in and did the charm offensive and got the part and just thought, yeah, that's better than business and economics. Yeah, yeah, because obviously my dad sent Mum and said, should I do that? And I said, yeah, just letting you know, I'm just gonna go and do a job. You what? You know, because I'd done really well at school, I'd had a scholarship and everything, you know, I'd been an all-round student and all of a sudden, something just went flick and I just went, I'm gonna do it my way.
(58:18 - 59:54)
And I've always been, I've always been doing it my own way, I've always been my own worst enemy. But it's also about trying to grow a path, isn't it? It is, and I still feel like, God, I'm a bit of, I feel like I'm responsible now, I've got people that work for me, you know, and I'm like, ooh, can I do that? But that's the whole point, you know, that is, you know, let's, let's progress. It's progress, you know, I mean, we've gotta like, we've gotta keep, And that's the risk as well, that's the new risk. It is a new risk, I mean, like, the fact that I'm bringing out protein, that has got meat in it, people are like, oh my God, it's like, what? Going against what is really kind of like a new rhetoric, bringing back a bit of an ancient, an ancient nutrition with a modern day spin on it, and people are like, wow, that's really unconventional, I'm like, wow, it's really not, it's actually, it's actually, I'm not inventing the wheel, it's actually what we've been doing for several million years, however, I've just put it in a packet, so, and it's pretty, and, you know, you can do it on the go, so, I mean, yeah, so I think that helps with the business, and it helps me, like, I've just launched in Australia, I mean, I've never even been, and they're like, I know, I know who gets our sense of humour, I know, the bloody Aussies, so I went into the officer going, and you were doing what? And I'm like, yeah, why not? Why not? There's women down there saying, oh God, can we get it? And I'm like, damn right we're going to do it, and I will push, and push, and push, until I'm a unicorn company, and I can speak to those flipping male guys in control, and say, actually, any chance you get some female input here on the whole health spam, you know? Yeah.
(59:54 - 1:01:12)
So you need to be that powerful, so I can get to these guys. You do. I mean, when you're talking about Nestle, and Mars Company, and all those companies own all the health food companies, and you're like, I didn't even realise. Oh God, I mean, you just like lift the list, and you're like, oh, it's, yeah, it's shocking. It's shocking. I mean, it is what, I mean, we think it's bad here, but like, you haven't lived in the US for 10 years, Jesus.
But I think over there, there's actually a more obvious conflict of interest, whereas here, we think that we're, we're not, we're not affected by it, but our obesity rate is the same as theirs. I mean, our diabetes rate is the same as theirs. We have children having legs amputated, because they have type 2 diabetes, which only in the 80s was considered a male-only elderly disease.I know, I know. The 80s. So something happened in 1977, I was born, but something happened that year, Elvis died, Star Wars. I know. The nutrition guidelines changed. Is that really what happened? Is that really? So, yeah. So we had no chance. We had no chance. You're going to have six meals a day with six portions of protein and six portions of grains, and it was funded by the agricultural industry, and everyone was like, that's fine, great.
(1:01:12 - 1:01:16)
Wow. But I tell you, who is brilliant. You've got to interview Zoe Harcombe. I know the name.
(1:01:16 - 1:01:20)
I mean, she is amazing. She's Cambridge. Yeah. And she fascinated, I mean, I met her, we wanted to go away for the kids for half term, and she was doing the talk in Manchester, and I said, you don't have to fly on your own with the kids, Matt. I have got to see her. I'm like, I'm like a fan-girling these professors because they are so brave, and she's up there with this tonne of data, and like completely debunking the eat well plate, and completely debunking the cholesterol myth, and she's just up there this tiny woman who is just a force and age and I'm like, you're rock and roll. That's the real rock and roll star. It's really good. So ballsy, and just so articulate and straight to the point, not bought, unaffiliated, and you just think, I want to be in your gang, so I'm going to be stalking like a maniac, and that's what I do. I just stalk people now. Holly, can we do a live? Please don't reject me because I'm still a bit insecure. Can we talk about the 90s? Yeah.
(1:02:15 - 1:02:25)
We have to talk about the 90s because the journey is amazing. The journey is amazing. So when you were in Hollyoaks, was it filmed in Cheshire right? No, in Liverpool. Oh, in Liverpool. And then when did you move to London? Let's see. I think I left there late 90s, so it must be about 98, I think I left, and I think I go straight down. When you think about those years of moving to London, you would have been what, like 20? 20. I mean, right? You're mad. I couldn't cook or anything. But of course, I mean, I can literally persuade anyone that something's a good idea, including myself. So I mean, I just wanted to go where the action was, and of course, I mean, yeah, and my parents were splitting up at that time, so like any kid from a broken home, you can play one against the other, and that's what I did. And my mum didn't want me to be, you know, stuck at home.
(1:03:09 - 1:03:30)
She was quite ill actually, she had a terrible back condition called scoliosis, and then major surgery, ribs removed, I mean, absolute hell, I mean, permanent agony. And yeah, so to be honest, looking back, I couldn't deal with that very well. I was, I hated seeing her in pain, you know, she put a brave face on, and I just couldn't take it. So bless my auntie and her sister, she stepped in, because mum was on her own, she didn't have any more kids after me, because she got cancer, so she couldn't have children. And I guess I was enough, one of these enough. But yeah, so she was like, yeah, go and live your life, let me see what's, you know, enjoy yourself.
(1:03:51 - 1:04:32)
And me being me, I'd just like knock on anyone's door and say, what are we doing? Yeah, and you know, I'd already had, I'd already sort of like connected with a few like-minded people in London anyway, because of the cast, a lot of them were London based, so you know, I had a social circle anyway, and I, you know, I used to go back up to Wigan all the time, oh, you've changed you, you've changed, that London. Oh, it was the same when I was there. You know what I mean? But like, it was super exciting, every night, every Saturday night, and it's like, you're hanging around with artists, writers, producers, just the mentalist people, creatives, that basically were risk takers like myself, so you kind of fit in.
(1:04:32 - 1:04:52)
Of course. Yeah, light goes to like, and you've just got a magnet, and it's kind of like last man standing, so yeah, it was a really good time. It wasn't as good as like the, Hacienda when I was 15, but, but to be honest, yeah, it was good, it was an extension of that, but that's, like my, that's where the lights went on, and I'm like, fucking life's great.
And I think that's why, you know. And now that you do talk about it, and say it was a good time, because I think, It was good, yeah. Yeah.
(1:05:01 - 1:05:13)
Hysterical. Yeah. The conversations I've had with the craziest people, the maddest people, I have been in tears laughing, and you know, I've got no expensive, I've got no kids, not married, whatever, surely that's what your 20s are like.
(1:05:13 - 1:05:26)
Yeah. I mean, to be honest, I was, if you think about it, if I'm 20, most of my mates from back home were at university, doing exactly what I was doing, but they were at Sheffield, or they were at Leeds, and I just happened to be in London. Yeah.
(1:05:26 - 1:05:42)
With a load of paparazzi types. Well, it was being documented. Yeah, but I mean, that brings me on to like, now, because, nowadays, kids are documented. I know. I know. They're just doing it themselves.Yeah. Yeah. It's a bit, it's a bit scary actually.
(1:05:44 - 1:05:56)
When you think about the 90s and the early 2000s, I mean, thank fuck, that it wasn't an era of camera phones. Do you know what I mean? I guess we would have acted different. Do you think? Yeah. Do you think? Yeah. People would have been careful. Well, that's clearly what's happened now.
(1:05:57 - 1:06:22)
Yeah. Kids aren't drinking as much, kids aren't, and there was no, there's like, there was a ladette culture back then, that was kind of pushed, you know, so it was like, if you are red, it doesn't matter, it's kind of like, tick. So there was a bit like, not encouraged, but, it was encouraged. You do what you want. But I think it would have self-edited itself, it would have done, because fear would have stepped in, fear of judgement, fear of rejection, that would have completely gone, and I think that's what's happened now. Yeah.
(1:06:23 - 1:06:32)
Which is, be it a good or a bad thing, you know, alcohol use is way down than what we had. So, something's changed. Yeah. Something has really changed. I think a lot of things have changed, but I think, yeah, I think you're right, I think the documentation is part of the self-consciousness, but also like, I mean, many, many things. Many, many things, I think, yeah, it's just, it's a very different world. For good or for bad, you know. Yeah. For good or for bad.
(1:06:50 - 1:08:00)
Yeah. At what point did you realise that drinking was more of a problem than it was just a good time? Oh, that would be, sort of, like, when I was in my late 20s, it really, it really became, I accepted it after I'd had, I'd gone through a round of IVF, and that brings me on to, again, hormones. Yeah absolutely. And it was then, it was after I'd had my son, I realised I was white-knuckling because I was terrified. What had happened is, when you have IVF, obviously, I've had it, sorry. So, you understand about how they artificially stimulate
the oestrogen, phenomenally. Now, and I wasn't told this at the time, but when you have the baby, obviously, everything drops. And, when those hormones, like oestrogen, oxytocin, dopamine, everything, so when the oestrogen and progesterone drop, that brings down dopamine and oxytocin, and all you're left with is your survival hormone, which is cortisol.
(1:08:00 - 1:09:19)
You will always manufacture cortisol over and above every hormone in the body. Because it keeps you alive. Because it keeps you alive. Yeah. And that's all I felt. Right. And the only thing that I could do that I knew in my psyche to boost dopamine was a glass of wine. So, I'd learnt that before because obviously I have an ADHD anyway. And I probably was way more susceptible because I got naturally lower dopamine anyway. So, you add the IVF on top, and then all of a sudden, you've got a recipe for disaster. Yeah. So, that's when I was like, I cannot function.
I am shaking. And I remember this dragging feeling whenever I get let down of breast milk. It's called D-NER. And it is the most horrific feeling of come down feeling. And it's every single hormone, feel good hormone leaving your body. It's like into, I've read articles about it, it's likend to a dementor in Harry Potter. It just sucks out everything. So, I had that. And it's prolactin super high, and it drags down dopamine. It's ferocious. Never mentioned in, never mentioned in hospitals at all. Just put them on a bottle. So, they were never going to boost my oxytocin. And by the way, they like, they say you are depressed. I should have been on HRT. I should have had estrogen put on me. I should have had progesterone put on me. And they should have monitored me, but you're just left to cope.
(1:09:19 - 1:10:19)
And the mechanism for me was to have wine, and then I couldn't give it up because the fear, the rebound effect, like with any drug, like with antidepressants, like with sleeping tablets, the rebound effect is tenfold. So, you feel way lower. And I was fighting postnatal depression, I think brought on by IVF. Then alcoholism came in to fix it. And that stopped working. That turned on me. And then on top of that, you've got every single drop in hormones associated with ADHD. So, I was at rock bottom. And gloriously, I hit rock bottom really fast. So, we're talking 31 years old. That is when I managed to just go, well, that's it. I do have to do something because this isn't normal.
And, hallelujah, I got that. So, I've done my 30s and 40s and probably, well, hopefully, by grace of God, I'll do my 50s, 60s, 70s, up to 120. So, I'm really lucky to have hit rock bottom then.
(1:10:20 - 1:11:13)
So, I only had like maybe about, I'd say, alcoholically drinking. Well, I think alcoholically would have started to survive, drink to survive would have started after having my first child after the IVF. Heavy drinking would have been about five years. So, really, I had probably about five years of heavy drinking and the trade-off for that is like 16 years of sobriety. So, when people look at me and think, oh, she's a party girl, I'm like, I've actually been sober longer than I drank, which is really weird concept for people but I'm so lucky it hit me hard and early. Because like I said before, you see women teetering in and out of a glass of wine, a bottle of wine and you're never going to feel optimised with that poison in you. It's impossible. And even in my first book I said, you know, you can have a glass of wine, you know, I want to retract that. There was nothing healthy about one glass of wine.
(1:11:14 - 1:12:01)
Wow, really? What it does to your gut microbiome. If you think about alcohol sanitiser, it kills every single bacteria. One glass of wine is deleterious to your health. It will impact your sleep. One glass of wine will take five days to leave the liver. One glass of wine will strip the gut of any decent microbiome.
It's alcohol. Whether it be Dom Perignon or frigging, I don't know, cider, Mary Down, it's the same thing. So you can say it's organic wine, you can say it's a vintage brandy, it's fucking alcohol.
You know, don't let it, don't let it get in the way of you feeling optimised. Yeah. And if you do have a problem with it, I know what it feels like.
(1:12:01 - 1:14:16)
You went to rehab. Yeah. Was it helpful? I mean, for me it was, it was good because it was South Africa, it's actually South Africa, it's the worst place for me to do rehab.
No, it was South Africa because what I needed, because I was getting divorced at the time, I needed total isolation, I needed tough love, strict, I needed to be out of any comfort zone, no passport, no credit card, no phone, and I needed to just go, okay, this is, because it's very hard to get your head around the disease of alcoholism. It's a two-pronged disease, so what it does is, as soon as you have a drink, it kicks off a craving that is no longer within your grasp. You don't know exactly how, but it's obviously to do with dopamine, and it's all very subconscious.
So, but, what is it that makes you pick up the drink in the first place? It's a mental obsession that you're going to drink again. Yeah. Like, a lady. And that is like every alcoholic's mania. One day, I'll be able to drink again. And it's like, to be able to get rid of that initial craving, you need to have a complete 180, and that takes a lot of effort, and I needed that.
I needed that 360 approach. Davinia, this is because it almost is like contradicting me because it's like, it's a spiritual awakening. Which, of course, brings you back to Bali.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. However, for me, it's kind of, I've seen a great quote, which made, which makes, if I was a newcomer now, it would make so much sense to me. So it's like, there's an energy, and so you call it, so religions would call it prayer. The spiritualists would call it manifestation. Scientists would call it quantum physics. Atheists would call it the placebo effect. No matter what people want to call it, there is no question that there's something there. So it's like, whatever you call it, whatever you call it, there's something there. And as soon as you grasp that, the craving goes. I don't know how it works, I'm not going to ask, I'm not going to, it just works. So for me, that was like, I'll call that quantum then. Thank you very much, me and Einstein like that.
(1:14:17 - 1:14:40)
And for me, it just let me let go. Whatever it is, it brought me to this, whatever that, if something got rid of that craving, and to this day, by the grace of God, whatever it is, it's the easiest thing I can do now, it's just not picking up that first drink. Do you think that your marriage would have been different if you hadn't been drinking? I was way too young to get married.
(1:14:40 - 1:15:20)
My mum married at 18, I was like 23, so I shouldn't have got married, but it's kind of like, it's very, and I'm hoping my kids don't get married until they're like 35, or even 40. You know, there's so much to do in the world before you get married, but I was kind of like ticking boxes, and I think David would say the same, you know? So we were very young, but it's what you did. Yeah. It's really what you did. Yeah. And you know, I've only had like, what, eight years, which is quite a long time for me to do anything, to be honest. So, but no, I mean, that was my journey. I had to hit rock bottom to get out of this grey area. I mean, I hate to be in no man's land.
(1:15:22 - 1:16:18)
I know it's a tough topic, but obviously him filing for custody of your kid must have been the rock bottom he has to move. That's just part of the system. Right. That's the institution that we deal with. That is something that alcoholism does. It's not fair, it's a disease, but you know, you can, I think there's more acceptance now, that it's not actually something you choose. You don't become an alcoholic through choice. Most people I know have drank more than me, but they're not alcoholics. Every one of my friends who partied with me has drank way more than me, but they're not alcoholics. People have drank 15 years more than me, but they're not alcoholics. and it's not about overindulgence, it's about what it does, like one glass of wine, what that will do to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's very interesting.
So you can be an alcoholic and you just drink half a bottle a night. It's how it impacts your being. Yeah. So it's not about quantity, it's about how it affects you. So, yeah, it's a very interesting subject. And it's, I mean, addiction is everywhere.
(1:16:19 - 1:16:44)
You see it with kids on games. I think we're, and food. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Ultra-processed food has just been, now considered a disease of addiction. So we're dealing with mass addiction. Oh, no, completely. Mass addiction on a global scale with, I mean, dopamine dysregulation is number one health issue. So that's food, gaming, porn, shopping. Oh, totally, totally.
(1:16:46 - 1:17:10)
I've got a friend who discovered Temu and she called it emu. Oh, my God, I was crying. I've seen Temu. You've not seen Temu? Oh, my God, okay. Don't go on it because it's so addictive. It's like some Chinese website that you can buy absolutely freaking anything and it just turns up like for five quid. I mean, it's just instant access, instant dopamine. It's crazy, right? But, yeah, I mean, now I'm on the other side of addiction and I can see it with retrospect. It's a fascinating disease.
(1:17:12 - 1:18:38)
Yeah. Did you, was it necessary to completely change your environment in terms of the people as well? Um, I think some people do, some people don't, but I just, I had to put me first and find myself rather than, just through necessity, you know, I'm in an acrimonious divorce. I don't want to speak to anyone who's going to side with him. I mean, what got me through that divorce would be rage. I mean, that's what gets you through it. You know, that's what kept me sober. That's what kept me sober. Freaking rage. Are you kidding me? And I'm blessed to have a ferocious temper that will take me through that. So, you know, I am zen and humble and that rage took me through that quite nicely. Thank you very much. And, you know, with hindsight, it's just part of my journey. It's like, you know, I've never done life smoothly and I'm more than happy. You know, I mean, I wish I could talk more about it but obviously you've got to sign like it's like an NDA type thing because I know women who can't get through this who are going through this as well and men who are going through this as well and there's a lot of tricky scenarios but it's more, this is happening more and more. But you co-parent now very amicably. Yeah. Which is amazing. I mean, absolutely.
(1:18:39 - 1:19:06)
I was on the phone to him the other day. Obviously, calling him an idiot is completely wrong but, you know, what can you do? I mean, he never listened to me when we're married but I why would he listen to me when we're divorced but now we've got a 17-year-old and we're both really proud of him. I think he's got a few of my isms and I'm like, Dave, look, it's me, Mark 2, Good luck with that one!
And how did you meet Matthew? Oh, Matthew, I've known Matthew since Manchester since back in the day. Right, so he's a really old one.
(1:19:06 - 1:20:29)
Yeah, he's really old but he was, he was actually painting and decorating with a company in London because he's from Oldham, actually, and he was painting and decorating and my mum asked his boss for him to do her flat and he was like, oh my god, Matthew, you're here! And I started talking to him and he was getting divorced and. When was this? Twelve years ago? So, I mean, we are so compatible. I am really pushy and panicky and runny around and he's so laid back. It is ridiculous. He's so chilled and he's so accepted and he's like, you know, he is so laid back, I can't tell you. And it just really works well. I mean, I don't think we had a row for the first five years. Wow. I know. I mean, which is incredible because I can row with my, in an empty room. I can row in an empty room and I do, often in the car I'll have a little make-believe row or in the shower. But he is the best thing that ever happened to me. Apart from getting sober and, you know, he really is just my, my sort of like, my anchor and my sort of north star. Yeah. You know? He was away last night so I was getting the kids ready and everything and we're very chalk and cheese because I'm a morning person and he's a night owl.
(1:20:29 - 1:20:43)
Right. And he does the tucky in at night and I get up in the morning and do my breakfast, you know? And I was trying to do the tucky in last night and I'm like, oh God, where's your book? Oh God, I'm just absolutely knackered. No, do you want to sleep with me then? You know? I mean, I really, I really miss him. He's only away for a day and I'm like, are you home tonight? Oh my love. You know? And he takes the unmerciful piss out of me and vice versa and yeah, I'm absolutely, I'm so lucky to have him. Aww. And he's cool, he's funny and he's, you know, he's daft. yeah. I mean, it sounds like it works.
(1:21:04 - 1:22:58)
Yeah, it really does. It sounds like it really works. Yeah. It's funny, isn't it, having a second act? Yes. In so many ways. Not, I mean, in a business sense, obviously, but also in a relationship sense it's kind of weird and I think, I don't want to name drop terribly, but when I talked to Gwyneth Paltrow about this, How is she? How is she? I love that kind of stuff.
Oh, okay. I want to speak to it, but I need, I need, okay. Well, good stuff we've got there.
They were launching the Goop Shop when they first opened the Goop Shop in Notting Hill. And so I went to meet with her for one of the mags when I was in New York and she was really interested about this stuff and I do think you have quite similar trajectories in some ways in that, you know, she was basically like, she was saying when she started Goop and, you know, it was just like this newsletter for my kitchen table when she was with Chris and, you know, living in Primrose Hill and whatever. She said, you know, people were so resistant to it because they were like, as a woman in, I think she was probably maybe just 40, you know, and she was like, people don't want women to change lanes in their 40s and it's like, and I think it's changing and I think she has been really helpful in that but it's like, they have got you in a box over there and it's like, no, this is who you are when you do it and especially, it's like, and you were married to this person and now, you know, it's like, no, she's like, you know, she's launched it and she's become, she's a running company so, you know, taught herself her business and also, you know, obviously met a new bloke, you know, has a new marriage, whatever but, I'd just like to say, I did not consciously uncoupled at any stage. I consciously kicked right off. Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, so, there's a huge, like, there's literally an ocean between her. But I think her point about people not wanting women to change lanes or to have a second act is a really, really good point.
(1:22:58 - 1:24:09)
Yeah. I think people are like, no, no, that's who you are whether that's like, you're a party girl or... because I did an interview with You Magazine when my last book came out and, I mean, it was quite funny because my publisher said, oh great, we've got You Magazine and I'm like, yeah, good, good. And as she's talking to me, I'm thinking, this is like sitting down with the News of the World in 1998 and when the article came out it was so backhanded, oh, you're not a party girl, like this and I just put it on my Instagram and I said, what do we think about this? And the, my followers just went, how dare she? Yeah.
This is the problem. Yeah. This is the problem. So much so, the editor of You Magazine said, will you take it down? She's getting trolled. I went, absolutely not. Oh, wow. No, this has to change. Yeah. It's backhanded, gnarly, oh, she's wearing this, who gives a shit what I'm wearing? I'm talking to you about hormonal health. Yeah. Which I've gone, I've done thousands of hours studying and you want to talk to me about drinking too much and being a party girl and I'm just like, oh, wow. Yeah.
The internalised misogyny is real. Wow. I was like, and then I walked away from it with the heeby jeebies and thought, didn't like that but I just thought, you know, it is what it is and we have to out it. Yeah. It's not helping anyone. No.
(1:24:09 - 1:24:35)
As a journalist, you know, you're here to help people and spread something that might actually just like, do you know what? That was a great article, I've gained that and I'm going to give this a go. It's hope. Yeah. And I think Gwyneth has done that, she's given us hope. I mean. And also, just shutting out the noise and the criticism of people who don't want to see you do something else. Yeah. You know, seeing that you can change other things. I mean, you know, why wouldn't we change? Relax as well.
(1:24:35 - 1:25:37)
Would we literally physically change, women more than ever? Why are men allowed to reinvent themselves when we literally, cellularly, change so ferociously from giving birth to going into the menopause to, but we have to stay in that box? Yeah. Phenomenal. I know, it's fabulous.
Phenomenal. And it's just, once you've got the fillers and everything and all this and you've got to stay a certain age and I'm like, anti-filler, anti-botox, and yeah, I don't have anything. No. I even, you can see like a bit of a dent there. So what I did was, I had 39, but I'm going to have some filler. So I put a load of filler in and it looked off. Well, it looked, I looked swollen. You know, I had that look, I ended up looking older. So, and it is a particular look. It is a look. You can tell. And you can sort of go for it. Yeah. That's sort of what they're buying but it's weird. So, anyway, fast forward, let's see, eight years, and this eye was like looking a bit sort of odd.
(1:25:37 - 1:27:30)
And I went down to see an oncologist, an ophthalmologist, yeah, and I said, I've got like this lump here and she said, do you know what? That's filler and it's moved. But I've not had it done for like eight years. I thought it dissolved and she said, no, no, no, it migrates.
So it was actually making this eye and this eye puffed up. So this eye looked permanently hung over and I'm like, no, I'm not having that. So I asked her to, you can get like a dissolver, Hydrolase, or something like that and she dissolved it and what it did was it went down into my collagen and it looked like I'd been sliced. So what I've had to do is, it's made, no, it's fine. I mean, I've got a before and after picture actually because I found it was a very interesting journey as women start, well, explanting or removing filler because we just don't know what it's doing, clearly, because it doesn't dissolve. So I documented it and so there's this there's this procedure now which is called bio-filler.
So it's a bit like PRP, they take your blood out of you and they centrifuge it and then it's like a liquid but it's like, it's almost like egg white but then as they heat it, it cooks like egg white. So it's, it's autologous so it's your cells and slowly but surely it's filling up with my own collagen and I'm like, so what was a bit of a disaster and I looked like I'd been knifed and gang warfare. Actually, what's very interesting so I'm like, well, I'm learning so I posted about it and people thought, oh well that's interesting because I wouldn't have known that.
I just thought, first of all, people said I didn't know you could dissolve filler and secondly, that it migrated and it actually doesn't just metabolise out, the stuff is for the long term and thirdly, you can use your own body which I'm a bit more excited about as a, not anti-ageing, just ageing well. Like a, yeah, like a good snake or a fine wine, you know. But obviously, I don't know how to call it.
(1:27:30 - 1:28:18)
But you know, I thought that was a really interesting journey and there's loads of women who said, thanks for letting me know about that because obviously we've got gravity, obviously we've got, but it'd be nice to use your own bodies and it does take a bit of a while so she said it should fill up a bit more as your body starts producing more collagen and obviously I drink fricking gallons because I've got a warehouse full but I just thought, yeah, I think the tide is changing so people are looking at new technologies and stuff for maintenance as opposed to anti-ageing. Yeah. Well, Gwyneth is the same. I mean, she, you know, very anti-botox, anti-filler, you know, all about optimising in the most natural way. I mean, we go through stages, don't we? Because I got seduced by it. Why not? Let's try it and then of course I'd do everything too much and then pay the price.
(1:28:18 - 1:28:23)
But I just like how I can be open and like, this is what happened. Yeah. Oh yeah, fix it.
And Matthew's not bothered. He just goes, what the fuck have you done now? Now what are we doing? It's very interesting. It's autologous. It's like, fine, whatever.
1(.28:24 – 1:29:11)
When did you, where, I mean, you said you spent thousands of hours studying. Like, where did you go to to find all of your, you know, everything that you've read and everything? Because I know you've also gone to speak to people like Tim Spector and stuff.
Yeah, I mean, that's exactly what you do. That's exactly what I do. I just read. Yeah. Ferociously read. So what I'll do is I'll devour a book and because my concentration is so warped, I'll have a brain powder and then I'll put earphones in and I'll listen to green noise that helps me hyper-focus. I'll get a highlighter and I'll just do it old school. And then, I'll probably write to them and then do an interview or something and that's it. Because, I said, please, can we do a live? Yeah.
(1:29:11 - 1:30:19)
And I'm fascinated, you know? And I'm often, like I said, intuition. I'll pick up something on someone and I'll think, yeah, I like you. I mean, is that almost a connection? I'm going to take a deep dive. I mean, I'm currently reading this book which is hysterical. It's so cynical. It's so funny. But, I mean, there's some great authors out there. absolutely. My favourite quote in here, because it's Guy Seamus, was a researcher, I think he was at Edinburgh University and as he was doing research, he said, one of his more cynical colleagues said that a mouse is a creature that, if killed in sufficient numbers, will produce a PhD. I'm howling. I'm howling at it. And one of the guys in the office, her sister's a researcher, highlighted it in a whatsapp picture and get this for your PhD assistant and she goes, on it, ordered.
Fabulous. And there's so many funny books, you know, that I really enjoy my sort of research that I never, in a million years, would have done like 20 years ago, it wouldn't have been on my radar, but some of the academics are the funniest people ever.
(1:30:19 - 1:32:10)
There's a great book actually called The Great Cholesterol Con, by Dr. Malcolm Kendrick and his follow-up is called The Clot Thickens. It is so funny and so sarcastic. He's a brilliant, he's a GP, he's up in Cheshire actually, you know, but such a brilliant piece of writing.
The lack of vanity and the just whatever, you know, about when you've got people academics, there's no like pretence. It is what it is. And I think there's a great relief in that writing, you know.
Oh yeah. Oh it's fabulous, it's fabulous. So I really enjoy my research.
So yeah, I read ferociously. Ferociously, you know. So what will your pod be? My pod? Your podcast.
I want to talk about, obviously about biohacking. I want to put something out there that is a little bit, um, not controversial. I'd love, do you know, I'd love to be able to host a show. So like the perfect example would be to have, say, a vegan and a carnivore arguing it out. Yeah. Like Jeremy Carr.
Yeah. But for nutrition. Yeah, yeah.
I'd like to be able to do that. I'd love to be able to interview, um, people who are literally in the research. Not further down, you know, right at the top of the research chain.
I want to know what's, I want to know what's hopeful. I want to know what is in for Alzheimer's. I mean, they are curing people from Alzheimer's through ketogenic lifestyle.
Absolutely. There's amazing treatments for oncology that we don't get glimpses of here. And you know, I know it's obviously too late for my mum, but do you know what, isn't it great to make you feel secure that, hey, that's what they're doing over there.
I want to be able to say, what's on the periphery? What's coming? Because, you know, the golden age of medicine might be over. We've, we've sorted out infectious disease, we've got chronic disease, that's the big one. Yes, absolutely.
(1:32:10 - 1:32:57)
Infectious disease, great, we got rid of tuberculosis, polio, boom, boom, boom, bam, bam, tick, box ticked. Now what? Now what? And you know, I mean, obviously we unlocked the genome and that wasn't as exciting as we all thought, but then you're looking at epigenetics as well and the lifestyle of epigenetics and how we can, we can actually hack into our genome by certain, by even hacking into light exposure. I mean, just putting the control back into us rather than the guys, I mean, don't get me wrong, GPs all hail, but there's a lot of pressure there and it's nice to be able to just have it in your own kitchen, in your own back garden, if you're only being not in Bali, but just to have the access to, I'm doing that right, that's good, my body likes it, for giving us control again, bringing it full circle.
(1:32:57 - 1:33:26)
Do you have a lot of gadgets? Yeah, I mean, I should have more, I mean, I've got my Oura ring, of course, which I got for my birthday, that I ordered, that I paid for, that I received, that I wrapped, that I gave to Matthew to give to the kids to give to me last month, so I did that, so that's my gadget. I have, I've got, I've seen the water thing, I've seen the water thing. Yeah, I've had that since London.
(1:33:26 - 1:34:06)
What's that called? It's called a Berkey, it's a vertical one, the kids can play, oh, it's room temperature, shut up! And that's got activated charcoal? Yeah, big cylinders of activated charcoal, it's like, I mean, I always forget to fill it up, I'd love to have the whole house filtered and all that, but whatever, you know, but that came with us from London, and yeah, we put drinking water in. When did you move back up? Between lockdown. Okay. Right, that's it! That's it, like so many, you know, and don't get me wrong, I still love the city, because obviously, stimulus, of course, but I really do love running in the countryside with fresh air and stuff, it sounds so middle-aged, but.
(1:34:06 - 1:34:23)
No, but it's true, I mean, I moved to Brighton a year ago. Oh fab, yeah, oh my god. Last summer, because I just was like, I've been coming back from New York, I found London quite claustrophobic, and I just wanted something else on the weekends, like, being able to run by the sea, by the sea, is just like, I can literally breathe.
I mean, all the ions, the smell, I mean, if you could bottle that, it would probably be completely toxic, but anyway, I'm just thinking about perfumes and everything. And actually, I've seen your, I didn't realise your infra-red sauna was basically like a great big ball. Yeah, it's ridiculous.
(1:34:38 - 1:35:03)
So instead of a bedside table, I've got that there next to my bed. It's not, I mean, it is nowhere near Gwyneth’s set up. I know her house has got the proper sauna and everything, but we do what we can, you know, and literally, I've got little people downstairs, so my little, I'm stuck in these, and this like, house, and a regular housing estate, you know, there's no big palace or anything like that, it's literally next to my bed, and I zip it up.
(1:35:03 - 1:35:08)
I would love a walk-in sauna, a barrel sauna overlooking the sea. I'd love that. I've not got that as well.
(1:35:08 - 1:35:27)
So, I've got Netflix on, and that is my glass of wine. I swear, that light in my liver gets rid of so much stress. That infrared light, it, I would recommend any woman who gets PMT, who has hangover, who is drawn to the alcohol, put that in position.
I think I saw a study, or was it a study, or might have just been a conversation about the sauna, and you know, if you've got people in a sauna, it actually releases certain hormones, a bit like a glass of wine, that makes you tell the truth. So, it's a real, there's an actual hack that's happening in your brain. You're not just sweating out toxins, it's fascinating, and I really actually look forward to it.
(1:35:52 - 1:35:57)
Currently watching Jackal. That's great isn’t it.
(1:35:57 - 1:36:03)
That's what I'm doing. I do 40 minutes in the sauna, well probably 35 minutes in the sauna.
(1:36:04 - 1:37:15)
This is before bed, so the kids have gone to bed. I put that on, and I sweat like mad, cool shower, lie on a spike mat, which is just nothing on Amazon, like a little acupressure mat, some spiky, if I'm feeling stressed and I'm not, it's fine, and I lie on that, and 10 minutes and all of a sudden, parasympathetic hormones cascade over you. You actually feel the GABA, and that is no pill, nothing. And I've also, of course, because I'm a bit of a wanker, I've got an earthing mat, because I'm at the top of the house, and underneath me there's lots of little people, and it just plugs into the, whether it works, I do not know, but you know what, I'm just going to sight on the air of caution, and I'm just going to plug it in, but they're not too expensive, and you can get them for the floor as well. I mean, I'm not going to start walking around barefoot in Lancashire in January. It's not happening. It's freezing. Filthy. Filthy.
So, they're my two, that is fundamental. For me, that sweating is a game changer for me. Apart from diet and what I do all day, every day, but that is the best 200 quid I ever invested.
(1:37:15 - 1:38:31)
Do you think, and this is the conversation I had with some people in the sauna at Brighton on the beach, do you think that people who have been quite hedonistic are drawn to wellness and woo particularly? Oh my God, yeah. So I was talking to my friend and it's like all of it, and you know, like in North Wales you've got Snowdon and everything, it's not far from Liverpool and you just see all these like ex-party lads and everything. Do you fancy a fresh one of Snowdon, lads? And they're all like going up there and they used to be six o'clock in the morning still at it, they're all up there and it's like we refuse to give up and there's something about, I mean, where I am now we're just near where all the Blackburn raves were, proper like, proper rave culture, every single one of them's got a dry robe, we can't give it up and that's what I'm doing, like going back to when it was, I mean I'm going to the Hacienda reunion, sober as a judge, it starts at four in the afternoon and you know what I mean? I'll be in bed by ten, I mean, but it's that and it is that but it wasn't about the drink, ever, it was about the community, it was about the joy, it was about the music, it was about the ambience, the atmosphere, this is a revolution, this is a movement and that's what I think the whole wellbeing thing is, it is another one, it's anti-establishment.
(1:38:31 - 1:39:22)
It's also about transcendence, about feeling something, about being light, the life, the light's coming on again, it's about not being beige, I don't want to be beige ever. And I do, it was funny, I had this conversation in Brighton because I wrote this piece about the massive, how we've gone mainstream basically and yeah, these people in Brighton were like, why are you taking notes in the sauna? Because it was like, we're having a natter, obviously, I'm sure, I mean, of course, there's a lot going on, stacking, we call it stacking, stacking your protocols, yeah. But there was, she was, this girl was saying, she was like, it is, there's a lot of clapped out old ravers who find love, she was like, but also people who do both, you know, she was like, it still is that kind of, and it is basically, you know, some people don't need it, some people don't need to feel that high.
(1:39:22 - 1:40:33)
No, but people who do will always need to find it and will just always find another way. And I don't think it's cross addiction at all, it's just that, because addiction is something when you isolate, this is community, it's totally different to addiction, addiction takes you into your N of one, you are party for one and that is it. The opposite of, the opposite of addiction is connection. Yeah.
It is not sobriety, right? And that's what this brings back again, so I revert back to me being like 15 in the house, I was sober as a judge and I was connected to everyone and I'm doing it again now, like you know, you feel the connection in the sauna and it's like, in the cold water, there's nothing like a feeling of a sinking ship to bring people together, when you get in that water with people, you'll grab onto them and that's what human nature does and that is what I think, we have at WillPowders just as well and we share our woes and I love the fact that people, I mean one woman, absolutely genius, so what have I got here? Have I got something here? No, I saw something called Spice which has got carcumin in it. Oh yeah, I've seen it, yeah. Someone said, rise deep breath, okay, I've suffered from piles all my adult life.
(1:40:33 - 1:41:36)
She goes, I'm just going to share it and I just thought, everything else isn't working, I'm just going to try the carcumin up my bottom and it works and the amount of people are like, oh my god, I'm going to try it. No, I am not a medic, I am not condoning it but that is how, you're not selling it as a suppository. I am not selling it as a suppository but I mean, that is how we talk and it is, the more humble you get, the more you share, the more vulnerable you get, the more you're accepted and I think, the pretence for me is just time wasting and that's what I think the wellness community is.
Without the drink or the drugs, it's just a camaraderie, it's just a vortex and I think it's fabulous and particularly on the back end of COVID when you suddenly realise how lonely, how loneliness is a killer, I think we're very lucky to be going into our elderly twilight years with these bio-hacks. Like the Finnish, you know, they always have saunas and look at their rate of heart disease. I mean, it's phenomenal and hopefully, I know there's a friend of mine who lives in Wigan and he's put one on in his back garden.
(1:41:36 - 1:42:34)
Oh, get in with his fandango ways? Who does he think he is, Joe Rogan, and it's like, you know, good for you guys, good for you. Totally overweight but having a good time doing his wellbeing. And I think the democratisation of it all is so important that it's not seen as something that is, you know, just for California or is just for, you know, West London or wherever.
You know, that it is actually these things I mean literally, the water is so cold right now, utilise it. Sit in your hot bath, if you can't afford a zip up sauna, hopefully you've got a bath. Sit in a hot bath, chuck a load of epsom salts in it and that's the reason there's a whole thing about magnesium. Everyone keeps taking magnesium and shitting themselves. If you have magnesium citrate, it will make you, it will relieve constipation. It needs to be in the bath. That's magnesium citrate, it trans-dermally avoids the digestive system. Everybody stop drinking magnesium citrate. You need three and eight in the morning and buy glycinate at night.
(1:42:34 - 1:42:49)
That's the caveat. But if you can sit in there, put Netflix on, on your phone, do 40 minutes till you can feel the pulse in your head, then get into the shower and do 30 seconds and that's it. We've got that already.
(1:42:50 - 1:43:46)
That's it. You're biohacking and you're watching Netflix and that's it. It is accessible and that's what I want to highlight that it isn't God bless Gwyneth but you don't have to spend how much on a candle. Oh I know exactly.I've got a candle for you actually. I've actually got a candle for you. I've got a candle for you that is non-toxic and it sounds wanky but if you think about your lungs, it's the size of a tennis court and as you're breathing in this soot from soy, breathing in these perfumes, you are literally wrecking your hormones and that is a nightmare for pets, kids, husbands and yourself.
So when you light your candle, make sure it is soy, petroleum, synthetic + fragrance free because that is my, I develop my candles just to try and highlight the smell. Watch out for the smell you know and our candles are made of coconut so you can use it as a body lotion. That's amazing.
(1:43:46 - 1:44:07)
So it's kind of, because you know when you're bored, well we've got them in work and the girls just do that you know, you're just doing a bit. It's great. I didn't know that about candles.
Yeah. I mean, scented candles are actually quite bad. Horrific, because it's like smoking, it goes straight into the system and straight into the blood stream so take out the soy, take out the synthetic, watch out for petroleum.
(1:44:07 - 1:44:20)
Yeah. So yeah, we've got, our range is called Candle with Care. But it's great because it's a moisturiser as well and we're bringing it out and it's called, the candle's called At Capacity, Smells Like You've Had Enough.
(1:44:20 - 1:44:27)
So when the candle's lit, I'll go, kids, the candle is lit, back off. I love it. The whole range is just great.
Well, I love it. It is, and if you, you know, and it is, and we don't want to patronise. and we don't want you too seriously in it to be dour. Or worthy. Or worthy. We don’t do worthy wellness because it's boring and it's really condescending and we all see through the fucking marketing.
We know that brown package thing has come from China, don't wind me up. Right? Yeah, absolutely. We all know the tricks, so.
(1:44:52 - 1:45:24)
So tell me about what you want from 2025. So, of course, because we'll probably run this in January, just so you know. Yeah, I'm going away, I'm going away.
Where are you going? I'm going to Panama on Sunday for two weeks. Wow! And then I'm coming back and I've got a couple weeks of work and then it's Christmas. Wow, enjoy that.
Yeah, I told you. Bit of culture. Right, so, 2025, my new book's coming out.
Excellent. Can't wait. Hopefully I'll get the cat trick.
So that'll be three Sunday Times number ones. What’s it called? Future Proof. Fascinating.
(1:45:24 - 1:46:54)
When is that out? May. Okay, brilliant. So I'm really excited about that.
It's a little bit more like it's not a diet, there's more bio-hacks in it, whereas like, Hack Your Hormones was a little bit, it was perceived as a women's book when really I was talking about ADHD and their kids and men's estrogen dominance and how they should have things like DIM and stuff, but, you know, it was perceived as a menopause book. I'm like, no, no, hormones are everywhere, they make you happy, yes, it's fucking hell, it's not just about women, it's little ones and big ones. And then if you took you off the cover and gave it a neutral cover, they could put it in alongside hormones or whatever like business books.
Like, you know what I mean? it's this kind of thing like they say that there are no self-help books for men, there are, but they're business books, they're like optimisation books, and it's just, it's so gendered, it's fucking gendered. It's so fucking gendered, so that's why I've really tried to lean into Futureproof. This is for your mum and dad, this is for your kids, this is for you, and this is for the hubby.
This is for the health, this is for the whole house, this is for everyone, because it's like osmosis. Whoever reads it, will start spreading. So, you know, obviously we've got, we now have a major, major issue with chronic disease, and I've leaned into that.
Some amazing bio-hacks with light, sound, gone. But some next-level elevation, so hope. Hope, what to look out for with the big ones, like cancer, Alzheimer's, all the biggies are take-on, and because it's numb, and everyone's worried about it, and everyone thinks it's stupid.
(1:46:54 - 1:47:44)
Oh, no, no, no, so, you know, 50% of the population are gonna get cancer, the other 50% are gonna get heart disease. Okay, well, at least we've got a target. Let's see what's, you know, triggering it.
So, I found it really uplifting to write it. Good. And easy-peasy in my tone of voice, you know, so you don't have to really focus or anything, and I'll no doubt have to do the audio book, which is the worst thing ever, because I do my mum's telephone voice, and I say, hello, and I don't know why I do it, I don't know why I put a posh voice on, but anyone who downloads the audio book, I apologise in advance, it's gonna be unbearable.
But I understand if you can't focus, you have to do that on your walk, so I get it, but just, yeah, sorry about that. Hello, 65 by 67, so yeah, so there's that. I'm speaking in America.
Brilliant. At the Health Optimisation Summit in April. Amazing.
(1:47:44 - 1:48:20)
And I'm like, the Americans need our products, of course, because we have the provenance that they've not got over there. We've got Swiss collagen, we've got Scandinavian beef in our bone broth, we are, again, not worthy, this is simple, cut to the chase, this is non-addictive, this isn't bullshit, this will help you get out the addictive mechanism that we have been force-fed, almost emotionally blackmailed to exist like. So, of course I want the US, I mean, I want the whole company to just grow without me, and just like push it off, and just do it, you know, whatever.
(1:48:21 - 1:49:54)
How many people have you got working for you now? Oh, up in Clitheroe? We've got 10. You've got 10? That's amazing. And we've got our Christmas do, we're gonna go and watch Mickey Flanagan. So yeah, we're still a small company, but watch what happens. Because I am a massive risk taker, I will literally take it everywhere, because I have to, because I've got a drive, and I know whatever I want, I will push myself to the nth degree, and I know I'm on the right side here. I know that I make, because I get, and whenever I have a down day, I'll go on Facebook, and I'll read, oh, thank God for this, it saved my life, honest to God, I felt awful, and now I get instant, oh my God, this instant energy, because as an addict-type person, I can't come back to you in three months and let you know how I feel.
I need three minutes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I need to know I'm better in three minutes.
The instant gratification is real, and I need to hack into that, and I think that's why people continually buy WillPowders, because they know it's clean, they know it works, and they know it gives them, well, more money in their pocket, because they're not flipping doing meal deals every 10 minutes, and also, it just gives them that sense of control that they've not had since they were like 12. Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. Because they've been chasing, we've been chasing junk food, like it or not, you know, we've been chasing it, because we've been told to.
Yeah. For decades. No, completely, forever.
Yeah, freedom from addiction, and you know, I hope I can help a few people, and have a laugh along the way. Exactly. Which I do.
(1:49:54 - 1:50:07)
Which you definitely do. You're a fucking great spokesperson for it, as well. I mean, you walk the walk, and you look amazing, and you can talk about it with authority, but in a way that is completely accessible, you know.
(1:50:07 - 1:50:18)
And we're always learning. Yeah, it's a journey for you. Because you're looking at things like light protons now, and you're like, wow, that's cool, man, when's that coming out? Yeah.
(1:50:18 - 1:50:26)
You know, and let's speak to me about it. It's basically like gossip, isn't it, really? It's like gossip that makes you better. Yeah, it really is.
(1:50:26 - 1:50:38)
And it's a lot of good, man. I tell you, I learn more about women's health at the school gates than I do anywhere else, because you have got real, honest feedback. This shit show's going on, this has happened, and such and such.
(1:50:39 - 1:50:52)
Like, I mean, not being able to get testosterone, I mean, we all need testosterone. Women actually make more testosterone than oestrogen, by the way, but it's still considered the male hormone. Best way to get it in the UK to say you're not satisfying your husband, they'll give you testosterone then. And I'm like, well, welcome to 1958, guys. Fucking great, bingo. Meanwhile, you're fat burning, your confidence goes up, you are able to take chances, you do have more energy, you've got more drive and determination, but it's all right, it's still a male hormone. Right. Okay. Yeah, I mean, they've got the medical, I mean, the NHS has got, God bless it, but it's got a long way to go.
(1:51:17 - 1:51:25)
I have no idea how to fix that, and I don't think anybody does. Well, Wes Streeting doesn't either, so. By the way, can we talk about him? I wanna speak to him.
(1:51:25 - 1:51:31)
I wanna speak to him. There is so much I can tell him. I'm like, okay, you've got Robert Kennedy Jr. over there.
(1:51:31 - 1:52:06)
What are we gonna put forward? We've got Oxford and Cambridge, what are we putting forward? We've got some of the oldest institutions on the planet of academia, and he needs to speak to people like me to say this is what I'm doing, shouldn't we be offering something a bit revolutionary as well? Why are they taking the lead? Why are they taking the charge? Are we just gonna, right, yes, yes, Mr. Trump, we'll do what, we'll copy and paste what you say. Fuck off, this is our country, our NHS, right? So I wanna speak to him, or I'll speak to the shadow health secretary and stuff, because they will. I can't speak to them anyway.
(1:52:06 - 1:52:13)
Yeah, I will do, and I will do. Why not? Because I'm, you know, a member of society. I've seen it not work. I've been at the rough end of the medical system. And I think the thing is that you know you can go private, and you know that someone eventually will listen to you, but that's not what this country is about. That's not the point, because yeah, but the private is exactly the same as the NHS. It's the same treatment. You just like, you jump the queue. So there's no real advancement.
(1:52:34 - 1:52:51)
It's the principles, it's what's being taught, and it takes you back to Zoe Harcombe. Yeah, and I think there's no appetite for radicalism, unfortunately. It's, as Wes does, and I've got my issues with Wes, but you know, he did say, you know, it's a national sick service right now, rather than a national health service.
(1:52:51 - 1:52:56)
All we're doing is patching up people. Well, it's because it's chronic disease is taking over infectious disease. Yeah, yeah.
(1:52:56 - 1:53:00)
I mean, of course, you have a car crash, best in the world, surgeon, best in the world. Yeah, insane. Yeah, best in the world.
(1:53:00 - 1:53:07)
Very good. But what about everything else that's really dragging into absolute health? I mean, it's all the chronic diseases. Yeah, exactly.
(1:53:07 - 1:53:22)
And where do you get there? But I mean, we don't want to be in the shadow of the Americans. No, got it. But we're already copy and pasting everything that the American Heart Association says, everything the American Diabetes Association says, we just copy and paste it and put it in English terminology.
(1:53:22 - 1:53:26)
It's not working. It's not, no. We've got a lot to teach them.
(1:53:27 - 1:53:30)
Go ahead. We're a much smaller population. We're more nimble.
(1:53:30 - 1:53:34)
I know. You know, wow. I can't wait till you take it to America.
(1:53:35 - 1:53:39)
Oh, I know. That'll be a hoot. I could talk to you for a hundred years.
(1:53:39 - 1:53:44)
Me too. But this is obviously... I do, I have to go to that shoot. I'm going to go back to the office